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Running heavy cable to new windlass
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bobmcd625
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September 7, 2018 - 8:09 pm
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Hello folks

I am (finally) getting around to installing a windlass on my DE38.  I found a Lewmar H3 on eBay which allegedly has never been used and will mount it on the aft end of the bowsprit following Eric S' work on Argyle.  I plan to use 1 AWG cable run from the engine room to the bow.  I think I can get the cables under the starboard berth and into the forepeak, below the berth, easily, but the last bit, from the forepeak into the chain locker has me worried.  I should be able to go through the opening that lets water drain from the chain locker into the first forepeak compartment, and would use some large tubing to protect the cable from chafing as well as water.  I guess I should enlarge that opening to be sure that water can drain easily.  My question to you all is:  Am I really stupid to even think about running cables through that opening or can I, with proper precautions, proceed without fear?  The alternative would be to bring the cables up through the floor of the forepeak berth and into the chain locker just below the hatch opening.  Certainly possible, but a bit less attractive.  

Thanks in advance for any and all comments.

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Scott Carle
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September 8, 2018 - 11:06 am
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Wow.. I'm not sure I would have considered running the motor off a wire that long. If I had gone to an electric windlass I think I would Put a dedicated battery up there and a smaller wire that would charge it. Or stay with the bigger wire so It will still work if the forward battery has an issue but under normal circumstances just have that wire charge the battery with a much lower current charge.  I would probably run that long a run for a high voltage wire but that's a lot of current that winch can pull very quickly if something happens to catch the anchor and bind it.  I don't have any hands on experience with installing an electric winch so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I am basing it totally on my electrical experience.

 

Give the manufacture a call and tell them how long a run it is and ask their opinion on best practices for powering the unit.

 

Remember that your actual wire run will be about 50% longer than the straight line distance due to all the up and down and around as you run and secure the wire from aft to up forward. I would actually rough measure out all the distance of the actual wire path and add 5 or 10 % for my calculations.

 

For heavy low voltage loads I tend to run wire 2 to 3 sizes bigger than recommended for the motor and as short as I can make it. My opinion is that the motors last a lot longer and work better with less heat build up in use.

 

Just my opinion.

Scott

 

ps. I have found that soldered lugs with heat shrink over the joint of the lug/wire or some dielectric grease in a crimped lug with heat shrink work really well. I then smear di-electric grease on the lug and bolt that the lug goes over at both ends of the cable works really well over time. It is a lot of initial work but I have cables a decade old in a marine environment that just like new inside and out and even on the lugs. The grease does a great job of stopping corrosion cold and maintaining a good electrical connection. I cover all battery terminals and wire ends with it and pretty much have not had to do maintenance at all on those components due to normal corrosion that usually occurs.

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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bobmcd625
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September 8, 2018 - 12:08 pm
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Hi Scott.  Thanks for your quick reply.

The use of a separate battery in the forepeak was my initial plan, but when I got info from Eric S (Argyle) that he ran his cable from the panel to the windlass, I changed my thoughts.  A separate battery complicates the installation, so if it will be safe to go with direct lines that seems better.  I once made a price comparison and found that direct runs would be cheaper, although I know cost is not the only concern here.

Lewmar say that for runs of 50 to 80 ft one should use 2 AWG but for 80 to 110 ft go to 1 AWG.  I have measured many times, being careful to account for all the ups and downs and come to 80ft total.  So, as that is on the borderline, I now plan on 1 AWG.  Lewmar recommends a 110 amp breaker, but I may go with 100 amp to avoid overload.

I have been looking into the various crimping tools and find that some people don't recommend soldering at al.  Your use of dielectric grease is nice and I'll certainly go for that on all my connections.

If the direct connection gives problems I can always cut in and add a battery in the circuit later on.

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Bob

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Scott Carle
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September 8, 2018 - 12:24 pm
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We are all doing well. I'm living the life of kids and school. Kids are 4 and 7 and both in school. Zsanic my wife just started school this fall also at the local community college. So I guess my life for the foreseeable future is going to rotate around kids and school 🙂

 

I have heard different things about soldering. I think it is a mute point if you use the DI-electric grease and heat shrink the joints. I have some soldered and some just crimped. Actually now that I think about it way more are just crimped. I purchased a crimper that is the size of a large bolt cutter for my cable ends. You have to be careful not to destroy the end with it because of how much power it can bring to bear. The only way to undo an end is simply cut it off and put a new one on if you mess it up. I spent a lot of money and time on my battery setup and all bigger cables. so far it has paid off in systems that I can pretty much ignore maintenance wise.

 

I did a bit of a clean up and refurb on the boat a few months ago to move her from sitting for the last 5 or 6 years and gave the cables a good look at to make sure I didn't have any issues. They looked like I had just put them in a few weeks earlier. Had to replace batteries and when I pulled cables off again it just looked like I had just put them on. Those batteries were at least 8 years old. I was seriously tired of doing wiring and ends and the meticulous attention to detail for every connection I did when I did it but it has paid off massively in the long run. (figure I spent about 4 times as long on every run of cable over just crimping ends on and connecting it) 

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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bobmcd625
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September 8, 2018 - 5:13 pm
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Scott.

Nice to hear that all is well.  Ah yes, kids!  I remember that period well.  It passes all to quickly!

I hope they are enjoying sailing.  One of my two did get into it, but the other didn't.  I now have a 9 year old grandson who is into Optis.  Hope he sticks with it.

After re-reading your post I am going to re-think the separate battery plan. I do see the advantages and installation is not too much more work.  Have to find a good location, size the battery and the cables of course.  More fun...

Fair winds

Smile

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Scott Carle
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September 9, 2018 - 1:50 pm
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I would place the battery one of 3 places. Under v-berth floor just offset from hatch in it.

In storage area under v-berth seat

or in floor of v-berth starboard closet with a a floor built over the top of it that you can just drop in place. I put my Isolation transformer in this location. It is a bit larger than a battery and about 80 lbs. Has worked out well Doesn't really take any usable space away from other stuff.

 

Also I would definitely go with gel or agm up there. You don't want to deal with standard lead acid there. That area of the boat really gets to bouncing in bad weather much worse than engine compartment. Double heavy duty retaining system for battery also.

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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jimha
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September 10, 2018 - 1:20 pm
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Would like to add my two cents too this topic.  Quoting Nigel Calder, for DC wiring ,you should double the distance from the battery to the windlass in your case.  That would mean your run would be 160 feet in your case.  When I read this in 1984, I decided to install the battery below the settee in the fore peak.  This has worked well over the years, as there is easy access to the battery, and with the battery only about 10 ft from the windlass , I could get away with single O size wire.  I used welding cable as it was cheaper and more flexible  than marine cable.  As most of the cable is out of the sun, there doesn't seem to be any problems with the installation these past 34 yrs.  I used a hammer and chisel to crimp the connectors, and then filled them with solder.  My Lofrans Tiger windlass has a 1000 watt starter motor which requires a lot of amps and wire that can carry the load.  Put a 100 amp circuit breaker in the system which is a great on and off switch for the foot switch. Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Jim

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Scott Carle
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September 10, 2018 - 7:45 pm
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Dang... thanks for speaking up. I totally forgot it was the distance both ways, not just one way.

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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bobmcd625
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September 10, 2018 - 11:14 pm
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Jim and Scott.

Thanks for those tips.  When I said 80 ft that means both ways (a round trip or "home run" as some folks say.  It's only a 38 ft boat!  The house bank is aft of the engine.  I have been planning on buying 50 ft of black and 50 ft of red to get a bulk discount, but I'll look into welding cable.  Always happy to save a few $$$.

I can see that that space under the settee would be ideal for a dedicated battery.

I am confused by your cable size, Jim.  Lewmar says that for a run (both ways) of 80 to 110 ft they recommend No. 1 AWG.  My windlass is also 1000 w.  Lewmar recommend a 110 amp Circuit Breaker which I'll also use as an on/off switch. For run of under 50 ft they say use No 4 AWG.  For my 80/100 ft I was thinking of No. 1 AWG.  Your No. 0 is larger.  I guess you mean the cable between the dedicated battery and the windlass.  Is that right?  But still I would think that cable could be smaller.  What size wire do you have connecting the battery to the boat's system for charging?  

Also curious as to where you ran the cable from the settee to the windlass.  I am thinking of going straight forward through the lockers in the forepeak and into the anchor locker before going up through the deck and connecting to the windlass itself.  Is that what you did?

Many thanks to you both for your good insights.  Still pondering which way to go.  !Surprised

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Scott Carle
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September 11, 2018 - 10:30 am
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On my boat the main cables for the two battery banks that go to the off/1/2/all switch are as big around as my thumbs. maybe 00 or 000 cable. It was stock best I can tell. When I redid the battery system I connected that cable to a buss bar in the engine compartment and then went with smaller 4 awg cables to the 4 batteries in one bank. However when I say cables I mean that every single battery had it's own 4awg positive and negative cable so that any draw the system put on the batteries pulled 1/4 of the power across any individual battery. so if I had a 100 amp draw it only pulled 25 amps from any single battery or cable. I recently replaced the batteries and put 2 batteries back in. I hooked them up with 2 of the 4 cables per battery so that I still only had 25% of the draw per individual cable. I saved a lot of money getting 4 awg but kept my draw across any individual cable low by having a lot of 4 awg cables. This also allowed me to put 100 amp circuit breakers 12 inches from each battery to protect all that cable and allow me to at a flick of a switch isolate battery's from the system if I felt I had a problem with one. Or just to run diagnostics on individual batteries without having to re wire the bank.

Here is an old writeup I did about my setup.
http://downeasteryachts.com/ar.....hives/2107

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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Scott Carle
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September 11, 2018 - 10:35 am
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Its been a few years since I bought any but these guys had tinned marine grade wire and cables and ends for outstanding prices. I paid about 1/2 of west marines prices I think. Not sure if they are still that competitive but I would definitely check them out. I have bought from them for years, though the last time was about 5 years ago.

http://www.genuinedealz.com/

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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bobmcd625
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September 11, 2018 - 11:19 am
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Hey Scott.

Thanks so much for your electrical system details.  Impressive!

But forget my electric problems for a minute and let us know how you are faring in the face of Florence?

Looks pretty bad.  We are scheduled to flying RD in one week and wonder what it will be like.  Not looking good at this point.

Best wishes.Cry

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Scott Carle
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September 11, 2018 - 12:19 pm
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I moved hurricane talk to here 🙂 so everyone can go to town talking about it without having in a windlass/electrical thread 🙂

http://downeasteryachts.com/fo.....n-sc#p3575

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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jimha
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September 20, 2018 - 10:12 am
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Looked up wire size in my bible "Boatowner's Mechanical and electrical manual" by Nigel Calder pg 90 to get wire size.  One hundred amp, 12 volt, 3 percent voltage drop, and 40 foot run takes 2/0 wire size.  If you do decide to use welding cable you should know that it is not tinned and the individual wires are thin.  That is why the cable is so flexible.  The cover is not as thick so overall the cable is not that great for a marine environment.  I try to keep a dry boat and ran the cable under the V birth and along the hull aft of the chain locker bulkhead and up to the underside of the deck.  This means that you can see the cable from inside the boat but the black cable blends in with the teak interior.  So far no problems.

Cheers,

Jim

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bobmcd625
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October 31, 1922 - 4:23 am
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Thanks, Jim

I understand the calculations for sizing the cables, but Lewmar recommend 2AWG for round trips of 50 to 80 ft.

In the DE38 we have about 60 ft from battery bank to anchor locker and back.  I have, accordingly, proceeded to buy and install 2 AWG cables (not connected yet).

I hope this will be OK.  I guess that the windlass will very seldom use all 1000 watts and if/when it does it will be for a short time.  I just found another table which says that 10% loss is OK for a windlass and that 60 ft of 2 AWG will handle up to 100 amps.   Let's hope that's true!

Another point is that Lewmar recommend a 110 amp breaker which I have bought, but I was thinking that a 100 amp breaker might be a safer option.

I might have a chat with the Lewmar techies to get my head clear!

All the best

Bob

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bobmcd625
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October 14, 2018 - 8:08 pm
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I must have stepped into a Time Machine before posting the previous post!  Believe me, the post was sent on October 14, 2018.

Beam me up, Scotty!

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Scott Carle
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October 15, 2018 - 12:04 pm
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Not sure what happened but the server had a date mishap. I have reset the date to the correct time. We recently re-homed the server on newer hardware under a newer virtualization system. I have the feeling that there was an issues with the virtual hardware date setting in the virtual bios 🙂 lol... what a mouthful. It should be fixed now. Let me know if you see any other weirdness.

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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Argyle38
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October 28, 2018 - 10:20 pm
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You do get some voltage drop from the length of wire, but that just means that the electric motor on the windlass is de-rated a bit. My Lofrans Tigress 1200W unit would be de-rated by about 10% for a 1 or 2 gauge run over the 60-70' round trip. So I actually have ~1000 Watt windlass instead. For me this was well worth it not to have another battery bank up forward. Also, if you ran a small wire to charge the windlass battery, woudln't you still have to contend with voltage drop? If your charging system was supplying, say, 14.4V, would the forepeak battery every see that voltage? Some people do put a battery up forward. I'm not sure how they deal with charging the battery.

Anyway, I seldom see more than 50 amps when using the windlass, typical draw is more like 20-25 amps. I'm sure it's occasionally spiked above that, but I'm not generally below looking at the ammeter when using the windlass. In any case, a brief spike of ~100 amps isn't going to cause significant heat build up in the wire or anything like that. You can hear the motor change 'tone' when it's being overworked and I always stop operation when that happens. If the breeze is on or there is a lot of current, I have my wife motor forward so we're not using the windlass motor to pull the boat. Over working the electric motors is what kills them. If I were single-handing, and in a blow, I'd use the manual backup on the windlass, rather than burn out the electric motor.

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