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I'm not sure what the deal is on Valkyr for the stanchions. They don't actually bolt through the teak cap like I have seen in pictures on other DE's. They have fiberglass sockets inboard of the caprail that they bolt into. I'm not sure if there is a bolt though the bottom yet. there is one through the side of the fiberglass socket they sit down in. However as much water as was coming into the boat the other day from rain on starboard it could certainly be an issue. I was thinking it might be the coming in around the screws holding the caprail in place. The teak plugs on 80% of them have come out and I'm thinking that rain is filling the hollows that the plugs were in and then draining down past the screws to the hull. It was just coming out through the teak strips over the starboard settee shelf and running down the hull there. I plan on pulling the cap rails off over there and taking a look. I will probably pull a couple stanchions at the same time and check them out also.
I don't think water was getting into the headliner though. Oh.. it does look as water got to the headliner in the head though. If we get into the head liner I will just pull it out. Paint the underside of the deck with a insulative microsphere paint and then put in a layer of bubble wrap insulation over hard panels that are easy to pull down to inspect behind.
Anyone else have experience with this stuff.. speak up... Please... details please.. even better add pictures to the details. 🙂
scott
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What a great new Downeast site! I'm very pleased to see a reborn website and hope to be able to share the various parts of the refit currently in progress on my DE32.
I recently painted the deck and house. I chose not to remove the cap rails and seal under them. We did put a bead of polysulfide around the inside and put a fillet of epoxy mixed with a low density filler around the outside. I hope that will seal this area for several years after which I'll replace/rebed the cap rail and seal the hull to deck joint.
Our stanchions bolt through the top and in through the side of the bulwark. We rebed them with lots of polysulfide. Taking them off was pretty easy, but refitting them afterwards was a long, sticky process. I think we went through an entire box of latex gloves in the effort to keep control of the sealant! We did though, and feel pretty good about the strength and seal.
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Our 41 DE has the same type of stanchion supports. Some of our stanchions come out quite easily and it is not possible for water to leak into the boat from there.
We have had many problems with leaks on Mariposa Bella and I have found that each and every leak has been coming in from the windows. The water seems to run down the inside of the hull and leaks out in strange and distant spots. I think I have most of them sealed up now. The leaks in my case were all the screw holes for the outer trim ring. Hope this helps.
Bob[Image Can Not Be Found]
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lol 🙂
Add one more item to look at then on my list of leak spots. I don't think it is leaking windows though. Actually unless water is leaking as you say down the inside of the liner or somewhere out of site this boat doesn't have a single leak from any of the windows other than the skylight in the saloon. This is the old style teak and glass with both sides lifting up sky light. Water pools on top of it and seems to be leaking in at a fairly steady pace in heavy rains. We put a white trash bag over it and get a bit of light and no water as a temporary measure. I like the looks of it so will be trying to re-seal it. If it becomes to massive of a issues I will be visiting mister lewmar for a more modern hatch to replace it.
Over all it seems to be a lot of water coming in during heavy rains. Maybe a gallon an hour based on what I pumped out of the bilge. As far as I can tell the majority or all of it from that starboard side midships leak. We did have a window there leaking around the rubber seal but just a little drip. There was some built up crud on the seal surfaces. After I cleaned the surfaces that drip went away. All the water was coming down the side of the teak strips on the wall. With the incursion there looking like it was coming from near the joinry forward beside the shelves across from the head. I kept feeling the headliner to see if I could feel any water pooling in it. It felt dry all the way to the teak strips. To me this feels like the cap rail where most of the teak bungs over screws are missing. I won't know till I disassemble that area and actually find the leak.
However the boat has not had regular maintenance of this kind since at least 2000 that I know of. It's a long time. Zsanic's family member that we purchased the boat from Angela bought it in 2005 or 2006 after it had sat in the marina in it's slip for at least 5 years with never moving or really being visited. The prior owners according to local dock mythology were older and started having health problems. I think they held on to the dream and the boat for many years past reality. Since buying it Angela did a fair amount of maintenance to the rig (bowsprit and spreaders replaced-I actually built the spreaders with her and helped install them on Valkyr a year or so ago. We made them out of teak. long story I should write down in another post) and engine etc.. but a lot of little stuff still hasn't been looked at. I am thinking that I need to pretty much over the next 6 months to a year go through every item of gear and teak moulding on the outside of the boat and rebed them all. check every hole drilled through the boat that the core is sealed. So far all I have done in that nature is put one of the hawse pipes back on the boat that was falling off.
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Bob said:
Our 41 DE has the same type of stanchion supports. Some of our stanchions come out quite easily and it is not possible for water to leak into the boat from there.
We have had many problems with leaks on Mariposa Bella and I have found that each and every leak has been coming in from the windows. The water seems to run down the inside of the hull and leaks out in strange and distant spots. I think I have most of them sealed up now. The leaks in my case were all the screw holes for the outer trim ring. Hope this helps.
Bob[Image Can Not Be Found]
Bob,
Did you just get your boat in the last year or so? We looked at a DE41 in california and one in Washington or Oregon and totally droolled over them with the pilot house and more standard cockpits. I would have been willing to go into debt to get one of them and even talked to the brokers. They really didn't seem motivated to sell the boats though and it was going to be massivly expensive for me to get the boat to the east coast after buying it. We decided to just keep looking on the east coast for something. We were not particularly looking at standard DE's because of how the cockpits are layed out but were mostly looking at pilot house style boats of various manufactures. Angela approched this fall about wanting to do something different for a few years and "were we interested in the boat?". She offered it to us at a price we could actaully pay cash for, and have a bit left over to put torward fixing Valkyr up. I have a picture in my head of how I am going to do the cockpit to fix what I see as deficiencys in the layout so that she meets my needs. Slightly moved and raised sheet winches. Travelor moved to cabin top or Travelor arch over the helm seat. Hinged seats Port and starboard from even with to aft of the helm seat attached to the rails. Maybe some type of bench seat arrangement. 🙂 I think I will copy this post over to a new topic 🙂 see what other people have done.
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Posts from the old forum that are topical to this.
Re: Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head!
From: Greg Smith
Date: 05 Nov 1999
Had the same problem – fixed it. (and you’re not going to like the solution) 1. remove ALL deck hardware – sail tracks, teak grabrails, winches, etc…. 2. drill out every screw/bolt hole with a 3/4 inch hole saw just down to the bottom layer of glass. If the core is at all wet, suck out water with a shop vac and allow to dry. 3. fill holes with marine tex, sand flush, and drill new screw/bolt holes. 4. remount hardware – bed with polysulfide. Do NOT tighten for at least a couple of weeks. This will allow the polysulfide to form a gasket. Now – on to the caprails. – remove lifeline stanchions and all fittings. Then, completely remove the caprails. While the caprails are off, remove, inspect and rebed your chainplates. Be especially vigilant for crevice corrosion where the chainplates pass through the caprail. Caulk the bejeebers out of the chainplates where they pass through the bulwark top. This is where most of your water has been coming from. Rebed the caprails with a non-hardening bedding material. (I used about 7 quarts of Dolfinite). Bed lifeline stanchions with polysulfide, using the same technique as with deck hardware. Use all NEW bolts/nuts/washers for the stanchions. There WILL be hidden crevice corrosion in the old ones. Whatever you do, don’t chicken out and use lag bolts. When you cinch down on the stanchions, there will be Dolfinite coming out of everywhere – if not, you didn’t use enough. Clean it up with a putty knife, rag, and kerosine and your leaks should be gone for the forseeable future. Good Luck………………………
Re: Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head!
From: Jim <gsgwyb@online.nsk,su>
Date: 16 Nov 1999
Have you tried a removable headliner? I did it on my D.E. schooner and I love it. I mounted the headliner on 1/8″ plywood and screwed the panels to the overhead. I have also seen it done using Velcro, but the screws work just fine. It makes chasing the leaks and the wiring a lot easier.
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Scott ... there is a design flaw in the sockets used for the stanchion ... after awhile they develope interior cracks due to stress on the stanchion and and the crack allows a leak to the interior ... I thought it was the hull deck joint leaking at first ... actually pulled the cap rails and rebedded the joint ... still the leak ... on long passages it was really bad especially up forward ... after about ten years I finally figured it out .. to correct it I pulled all the stanchions ... used a rotary rasp on a long drill bit extension to route out the interior of the socket ... cleaned the interior with acetone ... greased the end of the stanchion ... poured epoxy (thin) into the socket ... inserted the stanchion ... after one day (no less) rotate the stachion to break it free from the epoxy... inaddition to seal the socket I used a coax seleant tape forced in around the stanchion and the socket ... did the trick .. last 10 years leak free and dry even with some rough passages and a lot of water over the deck ... there is another design/construction problem at the deck joint seam aft where where the two cap rails meet with the curl know (decoration) ... there is a void in the transition to the cockpit level ... only way to fix is cut the cap rails a foot on either side ... remove and rebed .. hope this helps ..good luck and stay dry
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We're having some decent gale force winds with rainy squalls and its helped bring out a few leaks. Here's the list:
1) Sounding eerily similar to Scott's original post – coming out below the teak slats but all dry in the anchor locker.
2) From the Port Light on the same side (or at least right in it's area)
3) My least favorite – and possibly the largest leak, from the base of the mast
4) From the butterfly hatch in the cabin
5) From the base of the pedestal, slow drip right above my batteries but I made a fairly decent cover for them this last summer.
The wiring to the mast exits a hole in the panel below it – whats the best way to go about isolating and fixing this leak? What is the compression post made of anyway?
-Tom
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Update. After spending a day on the boat yesterday I think I've patched up the engine room issues, only time and some decent rain will tell. It seems the hand rail around the compass binacle was screwed through the core material rather than expoxy and the holes for the screws went right through. I'm finding that a lot of the holes in the deck just go into the code material.
I also found the the cockpit floor is suffering a serious amount of delam. When summer comes back I'll see if I can adress this.
The mast foot was a bit of a joke really. Someone had sealed up the drain hole with sealant. This is a small hole at the rear of the mast. When I released this several pints of water came out of the mast. I would assume that they had been trying to prevent water getting in through the electrical conduit inside the mast but the end result seemed pretty bad as the water that did get in now had nowhere to go but into the boat.
I'm still trying to get to the foot of the mast. I've unscrewed the wood facing into the cabin but it doesn't want to peel away from the rest of the area below the mast. Going to take another look next weekend when less frustrated. Eventually I may even get to try the snazzy stanchion leak fixing approach outlined above!
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Sounds like progress made. I have to say though that I almost wish people would quit posting on this thread... It is making my list of stuff to check longer and longer and longer 🙂
Hopefully I will be able to get back to the boat before the end of the month.. been busy and now sick. 🙁
I made the mistake of saying on Friday that it had been years since I had so much as a cold. That evening I started feeling bad.. now Im into my 3rd day of body aches, sniffles, sneezing, low fever and fun 🙂 lol.. some days it just doesn't pay.
However I did get my last boat parts delivery's a few minutes ago. So now I have all the parts to redo the battery systems on the boat. and most of the parts to do the dual filter solution on the boat.
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Just like Greg Smith says above there wasn't any sealing of the core when deck or cabin holes were drilled. None. We used a technique outlined by Don Casey. Here's a link here:
http://www.boatus.com/boattech.....sey/39.htm
This seemed to work great for us, although it's a bit of a tedious process as there are several steps. Drilling the holes only modestly oversize preserves the integrity of the cabin top or deck material.
Of course not only the fastener holes but the bitt and deck pipe openings have no sealing of the core either. The mid-cabin butterfly hatch was unsealed, as were the openings for all the ports, big and small. All were sealed with epoxy is part of our refit process. In the large openings we used a bent nail in the drill and took out perhaps 3/8" of core material to give good purchase for the epoxy mix we used. We used West System mixed with the appropriate thickening agent.
The compression post on our DE 32 is mahogany. The post extends from the underside of the cabin top down through the sole to sit on a fiberglass encased timber which is then tabbed to the keel. The compression post and mast wiring is concealed behind trim strip accessed from the head. The upper area of the compression post may be hidden somewhat by the headliner, I can't remember just what the fabric headliner looked like in that area.
Scott M
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Hi Scott,
I purchased my DE 38, “Loggerhead,” this past Sept (2009). She certainly leaks as well. I have had so many other projects since moving onboard, I have not quit had time to rip up the caprails and check the stanchions. The fordeck around the windlass and pulpit needs to be cut out and rebedded as the previous pulpit leaked (before I purchased the boat). But, regarding the leaking that you are referring too, I have a similar leak on the port side. I am thinking it is coming from the forward large window as I was able to reach my hand under the headliner and feel moisture the other day. I am tempted to remove all the headliner and either paint the interior or redo the headliner later. Also, I did have a really good leak coming from the both large windows on the starboard side that dripped a fair amount of water all over the nav station, distribution panel (may explain why a few of my lights do not work), and forward cushion of the quarter berth.
I appreciate your blog, as well as Erick Wanderlust’s blog. I just wanted to share my theory of where I think my saloon leak is coming from. I have other repair questions, but will post them separately as they do not relate to the leaking issue.
Thank you.
Lance
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We had water coming on on starboard down into the area of the instruments over the chart table. They weren't getting wet but it was flowing down into the fiberglass shelf behind and under and then out onto the pilotberth.. found it was coming from the deck drains . We pulled the drains and re bedded them and put new hose on them. 🙂 leak gone and that area dry.
I have also put in a forward sump and bilge system that the anchor locker now drains into as well as the shower. 🙂
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Scott Carle said:
Re: Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head!
From: Jim <gsgwyb@online.nsk,su>
Date: 16 Nov 1999Have you tried a removable headliner? I did it on my D.E. schooner and I love it. I mounted the headliner on 1/8″ plywood and screwed the panels to the overhead. I have also seen it done using Velcro, but the screws work just fine. It makes chasing the leaks and the wiring a lot easier.
Sorry about the hijack...
Does anyone have any information on a removable overhead? I'm going to be pulling my overhead in the next year and I'd much prefer a removable replacement.
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That is a fairly common project. Our original vinyl is in ok shape so we will probably not be doing that project for a while but I have seen where several people have purchased paneling and cut it the width of the fore and aft space between the under deck beams in the salon and attached it to some sort of trim strip screwed or clued to the beams and underside of the deck. Personally I would use two or three pieces from one side to the other so that you could pull it down in smaller panels that are easier to handle. Maybe glue insulation to the upper side of the panel so that it and the panel come down at the same time. I think that one or two layers of reflectix would work well. Here is a link to it at home depot. It is like bubble wrap with a foil face. Maybe a layer thick felt glued to the panel and then the reflectix over that.
I think you could do the overhead in the whole boat for about 100 dollars of this stuff with the paneling of your choice. For paneling I might go with one of the products designed to be waterproof. You can get them in different colors or white and different patterns. Zsanic likes the look of the boats such as jason's bohdran with the slats running for and aft between each deck beam. You can get paneling that looks like that that would install easily. 🙂
http://www.lowes.com/pd_13357-.....facetInfo=
scott
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It rained yesterday and I have leaks galore. I see water running down the chain plates on both sides and some water around the scupper drain hoses and perhaps from the stanchions as well. I was really hoping to refinish the cap rails without having to remove them, but from what I've read here in this thread, I've got some real work ahead of me in order to take care of all these leaks. Any words of advice ??
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I have done the forward scuppers on both sides of our boat where it leaked. they are a pain to take out as the nuts on the bolts under the deck are hard to get to. They didn't leave a lot of room to work in. after disassembly I re-bedded and bolted them down then put new hose on. It took a few hours I'm not real happy with the desgin of the scuppers and would have preferred holes through the gunnel that could drain lots of water overboard really fast. I might at some time make that modification. On the other hand I have seen drawings of putting a Y valve in the existing scuppers hoses to run water off of deck to your water tanks. I think I would filter it first though and make sure the decks were pretty clean also. 🙂
I have not done the aft drains on deck as they are harder to get to on port and are not leaking that I can tell. Don't fix if not broken/leaking 🙂 I thought I had a leak on one of the forward ones this winter but it was condensation on the fitting dripping onto the shelf in the cabinet behind the stove in the galley. I Think I will be covering them in insulating for this winter. It was a considerable amount of condensation.
Chain plates don't leak on our boat and never have that I know about. So no particular tips there. I think that other than accessing them it should be pretty straight forward to unbolt and re-bed them. Check out the holes in the hull that they are round and not rounded out. if rounded out it means the chain plates have been moving under stress which they shouldn't do. This would probably cause them to leak also. (hmmm... sorry I just assumed yours were like mine.) Many of the boats had chain plates that penetrated the top of the cap-rail and hull to deck joint. If you have these then you will need to remove cap-rail and re-bed them a bit more difficult.. I would recommend moving them outboard like our boat has so that the are on the outside of the hull and bolt to a backing plate on the inside of the boat. These are much less likely to leak and I think are a bit stronger also.
Stanchions are something that I have had questions about on our boat but haven't gotten around to yet. There were several ways they did stanchions on these boats. Some were bolted to the gunel, some to the top of the cap-rail and some had molded sockets in the gunel fiberglass that they slid down into. Ours have the molded sockets but I have never pulled one out. I need to.
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My chain plates are on the inside. I think I'll just be taking off some of the cap rail and get a better look at what's under them.
I have to admit that I thought about glassing over the scupper drains and just cutting some good sized slots in the gunnels and be done with it.
Most other boats have this and it works well. I'm not sure what the people at Down East were thinking with the arrangement they designed?
I think I may also do a water test and see if I can't isolate the leaks rather than just dig in looking for things that look like they would leak.
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I've heard a number of DE owners have moved their chain plates outside the hull which does solve some problems. Since I've already removed the Cap Rails from my DE32, I took a look at doing this (still considering it - and may do it when I pull the chain plates this winter to inspect them). However, the molded-in rub rail along the hull is hollow inside the hull (I've pulled the interior as well) and would need to be properly re-fiber glassed after grinding the rub rail to allow the chain plates to be flush. I would avoid using/making chain plates which bend around the rub rail.
In regards to the scupper drains - one reason they are designed this way, as opposed to larger holes in the bulwark is that it keeps water from waves outside the hull from running into the bulwark scuppers onto the deck. I've seen boats with flap doors (I'll bet there's a nautical term for those) that help keep water out, but given how much water I've already had come aboard while off the coast of California, I think the maintenance - say, once every 10 years or so? - is ok for keeping the scuppers as designed.
My leaks (numerous) are at the Sampson posts, the windows - gaskets are made of plastic? Really? (I guess they didn't know about UV deterioration back in 1977), and while I had some at the chain plates, they are gone now... and finally, the stanchions. When I put new cap rails down, I'm doing to make little sections for just under the stanchions so they can be pulled and maintained independently.
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Hmmm forgot about that. Our Sampson post leaks also. I keep intending to re-bed it. however we isolated the chain lockers with their own sump pump and no longer get water down the length of the boat in the bilges. We put in a little 12 x 12 box with a strainer and bilge pump in it and sealed the bilge lockers and ran a hose from them to the box. Also ran the condensate line from AC unit when we still had the built in one as well as the shower drain to it. It sits under the forward hatch to the bilge that is in the V-bert and pumps through a anti siphon valve that sits at the top of the starboard hanging closet in the v-berth before it goes overboard just above the waterline in the same closet. That through hull used to be the outlet for the water pumped through the AC unit.
We no longer have built in AC just a window unit that is ducted into the salon hatch. Not as convenient but surprisingly much more effective than the same btu unit that had been on the boat. It is an 8000 btu unit that cost about 160 dollars, 1/10 the cost of the 3 year old built in a/c unit that died just outside of warranty. The window unit is 3 years old now and still going strong. It will keep the entire boat at 74 on a 100 degree day.
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I did the leak test.....I basically covered the scupper drains with duct tape and filled the gunnels with water. Waited 20 minutes and not a drop coming in. So, it looks like it's all about the stanchions and chain plate mountings. I'm going to start pulling them today to get a better look. I hope I can avoid removing the cap rails...
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I was trying to take off the stanchions and I noticed that they are through bolted with a nut on the end. Any tricks for accessing the nuts that are inside? Like, a mirror and a long socket extension?
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do you have the fiberglass sockets built into the bulwarks that the stations are in? If so I wasn't aware there was a bolt on the bottom that penetrated the deck. I haven't ever removed one and mine have what appear to be set screws going through the side of the sockets into the stanchion. If they are through bolted then that probably tells me where my small leak on starboard is coming from.
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I missed the rains, we were on holiday in Mexico this week. However, my daughter (who has decided hanging on the boat reading is the best pastime ever) was there for all the rains we got and seems our main issue on leaks is the companionway cover. Two bolts there are leaking and another thru the slats. Guess it's time to put that project on "the list."
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A question for anyone who's done a cap rail refinish or repair that has the internal chain plates: What calking or sealant did you use to keep water from coming down through the cap rail and into the boat where the chain plates are connected to the rigging?
I got into a contorted position in order to get a look from underneath and there are very long sheet metal screws every 8 inches. I think these are for fastening the cap rail to the fiberglass. At the stanchions, there are machine screws with what looks like nylock nuts on them. Fairly accessible with a socket and extension. But, I only see two and I know the stanchion mount has four. So, I am thinking that two of the bolts go into the fiberglass. Trouble is, they all turn when I put a wrench on them, but they don't loosen. Which I think means that the other end is a nut and it's just turning. Not sure how I'm going to get at those?
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I replaced all my chainplates with 316 and had already removed the teak capping, which is the cause of much of the leak problem. I'm not keen on a lot of teak upkeep so I decided not to replace the cappings and glassed over the top of the bulwark for extra strength and water proofness (and it's painted). The chainplates go through it but I have slotted s/s cap plates that bed down around them which allows a lot more caulk to be squeezed down around the hole. No leaks in three years. Actually no leaks anywhere. My stanchions are bolted through. With a lot of contortion, epoxy, and in some cases, wire temporarily soft soldered onto the ends of bolts, I managed to have all them come through from underneath - so that, with the nuts on top, the stanchions can be easily attached or removed and caulked/re-caulked.
Been out of touch for a while as I 'aquired' an old Flicka for $500 which I'm restoring as well! Currently have my Down Easter in Florida, waiting a chance to hop across to the Bahamas and on (hurricane season permitting
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Thanks. I'm not a big fan of exterior wood myself, but the cap rail is still in decent shape and I'd like to keep it. If anyone can recommend good calking/sealing material for the cap rail stanchions and chain plate areas, I'd appreciate it. Thanks
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butyl should work well as long as it's tightened good and the holes are countersunk. Other than that the usual suspects. Life caulk, 4200, silicone etc…
here is a great write up on bedding deck hardware
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That link is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
I had to massage the link in order to get at from your post. So here it is again for anyone that's interested in doing a proper, long-lasting job of bedding hardware on to decks.
/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware&page=1
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no worries, glad it is helpful..
for some reason if you paste a link and then turn it into a hyperlink, or even just past a full html link, the forum software on saving it modifies the link and breaks it. It took me a few minutes of playing with it trying to find out why a link I followed a day ago wasn't working now. If you create a hyperlink out of a word or description that doesn't have http in it then it works correctly. I have edited and fixed my link. Sigh... I had noticed this on one other link a day or two ago and inadvertently fixed it without realizing it was an issue. I will have to look into it and find out what the problem is. Thanks for noticing and saying something.
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