proper rigging diameter for a DE 38 cuttert Sails and Rigging- Standing and Running Forums

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proper rigging diameter for a DE 38 cuttert
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bfloyd4445
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November 15, 2013 - 7:47 pm
Member Since: November 7, 2013
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currently she has 1/4 inch and the 9/32nds for the mainstays. Seems to me this is undersized? Please help 

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Scott Carle
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November 16, 2013 - 1:09 pm
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I know right!  They do seem a little on the small size but that is what the factory calls for. I just replaced my standing rigging a year ago and I moved all the 1/4 to 9/32 so that I could consolidated my fitting to one size. We used the english HiMod mechanical fittings top and bottom on all the stays. We moved the 3/16 whisker stays to 1/4 inch in size and stayed with the original 3/8 for the bobstay. Not including the staysail stay and jib stay the total cost for 3/16 wire and all mechanical fittings was 1700 dollars... We re-used all our bronze turnbuckles.

 

we changed up to 9/32 on the 1/4 inch stuff so We could carry one length of 9/32 spare wire that would replace the majority of the stays and use the existing fittings. also so that we could carry one size of spare fitting.

posts 113

10:58 am November 14, 2013

 
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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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Argyle38
US Northeast
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November 27, 2013 - 7:33 pm
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I bumped about everything up by one size, but I can see Scott's approach being very good too (fewer spares).

So for the uppers I now have 5/16, lowers are 9/32.

I'm re-doing fore and aft standing rigging this year and will have:

Headstay: 5/16

Inner-forestay: 9/32

Backstay: 5/16 (This is a bump up two sizes for the backstay but it seems to me it should absolutely match the headstay.)

Like Scott, I also have swaged terminals on the upper end of the connections with Hi-mod terminals at the lower end. Very happy with the Hi-mods. My engineer self loves the design.

For the Bobstay I decided on solid rod rigging. I can recommend this as well since at its location, the bobstay will always be covered in salt water. With rod, there are no crevices for the seawater to get in and start corrosion. Also, with the short length it isn't too much more expensive than 1x19. Have a piece of 5/16 rod as the bob stay with professional terminations at both ends. 5/16 rod is roughly the strength of 7/16 1x19.

 

I would like to bump up the size of my whisker stays from 3/16 to 1/4 but from the web site that I look at (riggingonly.com) it looks like I the end fittings are only available in 1/2" clevis pin terminals. My current clevis pins for the whiskers are 3/8" so I would have to drill new holes in the crans-iron and the whisker stay fitting on the hull. Scott, what did you do when you upgraded your whisker stays?

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S/V Argyle Downeaster 38 #40 Long Island Sound
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svbodhran
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November 28, 2013 - 12:56 am
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I don't know the figures for the 38, but the standard rigging for the DE32 is perfectly adequate.  When you go to larger size wire, you have to pre-tension it considerably hire to ensure that it doesn't stretch and the mast doesn't bend when under load.  That extra tension can end up causing structural problems over the long run.  With Bodhran, I've used the stock sized rigging  and tensioned the lower shrouds to 12% breaking strength and all the rest of the rig to 15% percent breaking strength.  I've had to add additional structural reinforcements for all of the shrouds due to leaks in the caprail around the chainplates.  I've also got lots of gel coat crazing and some caprail cracks around the backstay chainplate.  The bowsprit seems to be holding fine, but it's a balancing act playing the headstay, inner forestay,  bobstay and whisker stays against each other.

 

It might make you feel better going with stouter rigging, but in my opinion the original rigging is properly sized.  Upsizing the rigging is going to lead to structural problems in the long run.

 

As for the Hi-mod fittings, I put mine on the boat in 2005 and they're still in great shape.  I re-did the bobstay back in 2006 and it was a breeze re-using the hi-mod fitting.

 

Jason

DE32 Bodhran

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Scott Carle
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December 4, 2013 - 5:53 pm
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I used the hi mod fittings both  top and bottom on all the rigging.. as to the whisker stays I went to 1/4 inch.. you can get the hi-mod fittings with the correct pin sizes so that you don't have to drill anything out. I went with the stock  3/8 wire on the bobstay with hi mod fittings top and bottom. the old one had been on for years in and out of the water and had no corrosion. However someone looked to have hit the dock with the bobstay maybe an the lower swage terminal on it had actually bent. 

Jason makes a good point about the dangers of upsizing the rigging. I mainly did mine to standardize on 9/16 wire for replacability of fittings and wire so that I didn't have to carry a lot of different size spares. One long spool of wire and couple extra terminals and I should be good. I have actually tought about re-using the old 9/36 wire and some himod terminals to replace my life lines to continue the idea to extremes 🙂

 

scott

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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Argyle38
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December 5, 2013 - 10:25 pm
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I don't think you have to snug up your rigging based on the breaking strength of the cables. I tension my rigging based on deflection, mast bend and tension of leeward shrouds on the wind.

All of the sails are the same size, so the forces that everything will see will be the same, in the same conditions. If you upgrade your rigging to cable that has a higher working load, you don't have up the rig tension to the same percent value, as long as the cable has less stretch. Higher diameter cable will have less stretch than lower diameter cable. So maybe instead of tightening to 15%, one might only have to tension to 10% and see the a very similar amount of residual stretch over the remaining 10-60% of working load that the rig is likely to see in anything short of a knockdown.

I'm sure the stock rigging is fine regardless. Most rig failures happen at the chainplates and in the connections at the deck anyway. Either way, I'm committed. 🙂 I think I originally chose to upgrade my rigging size based on what I saw on other boats of similar size. Westsails, Vagabonds, Island Packets all have rigging closer to the size I've upgraded to. 

Keeping an eye on the boat structure around the rig connections is good advice in any case.

Scott, I'll take a look at the Hi-Mod options for the whiskers. I had not looked there yet. Speaking of lifelines, I replaced my terrible, plastic coated and rusted out lifelines before I even splashed the boat for the first time. I have 3/8" 1x19 for lifelines. It's the biggest rigging on the boat after the bobstay! I chose the largest diameter that would fit through the stanchions. This was more an ergonomic rather than a breaking strength decision. I hate little skinny wires used for lifelines on some boats. Those things can give you a nasty gash if you fall against it.

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S/V Argyle Downeaster 38 #40 Long Island Sound
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Scott Carle
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December 6, 2013 - 1:56 pm
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I think it is all about the stretch.. you don't want to get in bad conditions and have the rigging stretch then. So you take it up to pre-stretch it. I know that there is a lot of stretch in stainless both constructional and then when in use.. It is amazing how slack my rigging is just sitting at the dock after a year since I installed the new rigging and tensioned it. I need to tension it again.

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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Patrick Twohig
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April 6, 2014 - 10:32 pm
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What do you dial your tension into?  I just noticed my forestay is really slack 🙁

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Scott Carle
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April 6, 2014 - 11:40 pm
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I don't have that info off hand.. I think the uppers are supposed to be close to 1000 lbs? and the lowers in the 600 or 700 lbs range.. Best way is to just tighten it up evenly and then take her out on a 10 knot day and tune her on the water so that everything is straight and tight with all sail up. I pre-tuned her at the dock with a gauge I borrowed from a neighbor in the marina. Argyle in his post above states it pretty well.

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Scott Carle DE38 Cutter s/v Valkyr
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Patrick Twohig
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April 7, 2014 - 11:35 am
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Somebody really neglected my boat before I had it.  The forestay seems to be completely slack, you can see it flop in the breeze and my bowsprit shrouds are also loose and sagging.

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