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So I just got my DE38 Cutter, and I'm not really happy with the winches. The winch for the mainsheet has some serious issues. It's action is really stiff and the pawls seem to be seized, because the winch freely rotates in both directions. Secondly, the jib sheet has no winch and just a horn cleat to hold it down, no jam cleat, nothing that lets you quickly tie off the jib sheet. It makes jibing the boat a huge pain in the ass.
The genoa sheet winches (? is that what you call them ?) are #25 self tailing winches. The action on them both is a bit stiff, but the pawls work and they are actually quite nice. They are single action, though and for a boat of this size I'm concerned that they're just a little undersized for the amount of sail area that genoa has. My plan was this...
- Disassemble/rebuild the genoa sheet winches to make their action smooth again.
- Take the existing pair of #25 winches for the genoa sheets and mount them on top of the cabin trunk.
- Dedicate one to the jib sheet and one to the main sheet
- Buy bigger winches for the genoa sheets. Perhaps some Lewmar #30 or #40 dual action
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hmm.. If you could post some pictures it would help.. I think I am picturing your setup though...
For the Jib/Genoa on my DE38 there are a pair of self tailing 44 lewmars I think one on either side of the boat mounted aft where on the aft deck where it steps up a few inches from the rest of the deck forward. You have to be carefully at what angle the line tails off the winch or it will cause a over ride in seconds. 🙂 We had to change that when we bought the boat. With the winches almost flush on the deck line will pile up and can easily get caught up in the winch.. I have seen a lot of different layouts for these winches on our boats though. Everything from a raised platform with them on it to on the cap rail's etc...
The stay sail sheet which is what I think your calling the (jib?) has a single winch on starboard on the aft corner of the cabin top with a single cleat to tie it off.
The main sheet on my boat is also a self tailing 44 or so directly behind the helm seat.This is a seriously compromised position as it is almost impossible for the person at the helm to reach with it directly behind them. The way it is laid out is also conducive to overrides developing... It's on our todo list to change.
So you should have for the Jib/Genoa something a lot larger than a #25.. I would move one of the #25's to use with the stay sail. I am currently putting a line clutch and rearranging my stay sail sheet winch to make mine a bit easier to use. Not that the original layout with the cleat was to hard. The winch held all the force anyways. However I am going to add roller furling soon to the stay sail and wanted to use one winch to handle both the furling and sheet lines. That needs a rope clutch to pull off.
Jib furling wasn't standard on these boats so any system in place was either an option at the factory or most likely added later by an owner. Ours works but is stiff sometimes. We eventually went to a slightly smaller diameter line to keep it from binding on the drum. Given the age of the boat it might be an older system that just doesn't work as smoothly as newer generation furlers.
Over all I would look through a lot of the pictures of DE38's on the website and steal a layout that you like and redo like that. Sometimes I think that there was no standardized sheet and winch arrangement as a lot of the boats are just laid out differently that way. I also have seen a lot of different brands and sizes of winches in use. Again It's like they didn't have a standard and that it was a option each owner got to choose his own preference on equipment and layout. I will say that on my boat the geometry of the sails is very nicely laid out for performance as the stay sail makes a drastically noticeable difference in performance. To do that it had to be laid out just right.
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by the way 🙂 welcome to the Downeaster community and the website 🙂 These are great boats and we have a lot of resources and people that hopefully can help you with any questions you might have. 🙂 as you do projects on your boat, please take a picture or two and write it up and send them in for us to post. We are continually trying to expand whats available on the website so that the knowledge base increases.
Scott
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Thanks for the advice on the winches. It's certainly helpful and gives me an idea moving forward. I've attached a picture of the boat before I bought it. This is the only picture I have of the cockpit showing the winch configuration and it came from the survey report or it was provided by the broker, I can't remember which. This was taken when the boat wasn't mine, and the mess on deck wasn't mine.
As I understand it, the DE38 Cutter's sails are called genoa, jib, main going fore to aft. I always understood that the foremost staysail is a genoa because it overlaps the main, the next is a self-tacking jib because it doesn't overlap and it is a staysail (versus a mizzen sail on a ketch). And lastly the main because…it's the main. So I've called the self tacking staysail's line the "jibsheet" and the foremost staysail's lines the "genoa sheets". I'm probably incorrect in my terminology, but I hope that clears up some confusion.
For the Jib/Genoa on my DE38 there are a pair of self tailing 44 lewmars I think one on either side of the boat mounted aft where on the aft deck where it steps up a few inches from the rest of the deck forward. You have to be carefully at what angle the line tails off the winch or it will cause a over ride in seconds. 🙂 We had to change that when we bought the boat. With the winches almost flush on the deck line will pile up and can easily get caught up in the winch.. I have seen a lot of different layouts for these winches on our boats though. Everything from a raised platform with them on it to on the cap rail's etc…
Somebody put a pair of Lewmar single action #25 winches there. They're slightly forward in the cockpit close to the beam and are on raised stainless steel platforms. They're a little stiff because the previous owners evidently didn't know what winch covers were. They still work okay though, I'm going to take them apart and replace any blown out bearings and buy some winch covers in the short term.
The stay sail sheet which is what I think your calling the (jib?) has a single winch on starboard on the aft corner of the cabin top with a single cleat to tie it off.
Yeah, I'm calling that the jibsheet. There's no winch for that one, just a horn cleat (not even a jam cleat). Requires you to do a cleat knot every time you trim the sail. In the picture there's a trash can where that should be. This alone makes jibing a pain in the ass. Sheet in, fumble around for a few seconds with the cleat knot, then trim the main.
The main sheet on my boat is also a self tailing 44 or so directly behind the helm seat.This is a seriously compromised position as it is almost impossible for the person at the helm to reach with it directly behind them. The way it is laid out is also conducive to overrides developing… It's on our todo list to change.
There's an identical winch there on my boat as well. It's the same winch that the main sheet has. I had assumed they used it to hoist the dinghy up on the davits. It had never occurred to me that could be used as the mainsheet winch. Right now I just see it as a trip hazard becauase that's all it's been good for so far. It's not self tailing, but somebody did install a wincher. It doesn't do much good because the wincher is too small for the size of rope they picked for the mainsheet. The mainsheet winch on the cabin trunk has the same equally useless wincher.
So you should have for the Jib/Genoa something a lot larger than a #25.
Preaching to the choir here, ha. What would you say is the minimum size I should consider for that winch? I'm thinking of repurposing both of those. One for the main sheet and one for the staysail (jib?) sheet. I don't know if a #25 is too small for the main, but I seemed to have no problem sheeting in the main with the existing winch.
Jib furling wasn't standard on these boats so any system in place was either an option at the factory or most likely added later by an owner. Ours works but is stiff sometimes. We eventually went to a slightly smaller diameter line to keep it from binding on the drum. Given the age of the boat it might be an older system that just doesn't work as smoothly as newer generation furlers.
It definitely looks a lot newer than the other equipment on the boat. The line is old and worn out, probably reached the end of its useful life.
Picture of the boat's cockpit: http://i.imgur.com/H3jZVIm.jpg
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Scott Carle said:
by the way 🙂 welcome to the Downeaster community and the website 🙂 These are great boats and we have a lot of resources and people that hopefully can help you with any questions you might have. 🙂 as you do projects on your boat, please take a picture or two and write it up and send them in for us to post. We are continually trying to expand whats available on the website so that the knowledge base increases.
Scott
I certainly will. I've got a "short list" of projects to be completed. Last thing I did was rebuild the starter, before that sort out the issues with the bilge pump. Right now I'm working on replacing/rebuilding the fresh water pump for the shower/sink. That was damaged when the boat started to sink.
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So to back up what Scott said, the terminology used in the owner's manuals for the sails on Downeasters are yankee jib or jib attached to the headstay and staysail attached to the forestay. The yankee is a high cut slightly overlapping genoa and the jib is a much smaller, not even close to overlapping sail. Of course with how old these boats are, most have newer sails and may have not stuck to the original sail plan. I've always called the "forestay" the "inner forestay", but according to the drawings I'm wrong.
Bodhran is a DE32 not a 38. She originally came with single action Lewmar 30s for the jib/genoa sheet winches. I've since added cockpit combings to raise the winches up and upgraded to double action Lewmar 40 self tailers. Both of these were huge upgrades. With the old lewmar 30's I'd sometimes have to luff the jib in order to get it trimmed in enough. Even with the 40s, I have to put some effort into grinding sometimes. For a DE38, I think that 40s would be undersized.
Your winch bases look a bit undersized in the picture. If you're up for a project adding combings to keep water out of the cockpit and raising up the height of the winches are two of the best improvements I've made. I moved the jib/genoa tracks to the caprail so I really needed the extra height, but even with the old tracks I often ran into overrides on my winches.
Jason
DE32 Bodhran
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The jibsheets are #25 and the mainsheet is a #30. Neither are dual action, and only the #25 winches are self-tailing. The DE 38 is certainly a huge rig for those size winches.
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Your #30 for the main is probably way overkill. I've got a 4:1 setup and a Lewmar 16 on Bodhran's mainsheet. I hardly ever have to use the winch to sheet in the main. It sounds like you might want to retask the #25 self tailers to mainsheet and staysail sheet duty and then pick yourself up some new genoa winches.
Jason
DE32 Bodhran
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I have 4:1 on the main sheet.. weird 4:1 though.. It has a Lemar #44 two speed I think and to be honest in 25 knots of wind with no reefs in the main it gets stiff even for it.. 🙂 lol that is probably pushing it for not having a reef in but these boats are stiff and can take a lot of wind.. However my point is that if your in storm conditions you will want the bigger winch for the main sheet. The DE38 caries a bit more sail than the DE32 and the boom is longer. 17 ft.. its potentially a lot of force. My main future running rigging project is a arch over the cockpit with the traveller moved up to it. I hate the current arrangement with a passion. As you are tacking the main sheet cuts through where the helmsman’s head is when he is sitting at the helm. I recently changed out the main sheet and blocks themselves on my boat but haven’t sailed with the new arrangement. Just went to a more modern set of blocks and some hi tech synthetic line I got on the cheap.. might have been a mistake as it isn't as stretchy as the old stuff was and will up the shock loading a bit.
If I were you I would go to self tailing 44's or better on the main sheet and jib sheets and move one of the 25's to the stay sail sheet. The self tailing will be nice there so you can use one hand to crank and the other to hold onto the boat with rather than having to tail as you crank.
As to terminology.. your probably correct as the forward most stay on a DE38 or DE32 cutter rig would traditionally the fors'l stay? and then the stays'l stay behind it.. I think because the stay doesn't go to the mast head and terminates behind the bow on the fore deck that it would be a true stays'l .. I have a couple books around here if I wasn't lazy that would set us right 🙂 however modern common usage around the harbour here would give the forward most stay on our boat as the fore stay and with the jib on it. Then the stay sail stay with the stay sail on it. Then the main sail 🙂 Not saying it's totally correct just what I have experienced. I tried using the correct names once upon a time and all I got were confused looks from 98% of those I was talking to so I gave up long enough ago that I would have to look it up again to make sure I was correct in my nomenclature. If on a tall ship or other sailing ship with more than 3 or 4 sails it would probably start to have relevance again to know exactly what each is called correctly, to keep confusion down.
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