Standard Head vs Composting Head General Forum Forums

Bob,

Do you know what kind/brand/model of composting head they have? I keep coming back to that as a desirable long term solution but for what it is going to cost I really like to get a lot of feedback from those using them.

I haven't even seen the holding tank of Valkyr yet. It is under the vberth I think. I would love to reclaim that space for storage. I will definate give a very detailed project writeup if I do it and ongoing updates on useage. I'm pretty detirmined to get one and if so it will be installed sometime this spring.

I've heard of the sun mar units. I don't think I would get one of them. They process the urine and fecal matter in a single tank which then drains the urine down to a evaporation chamber that needs heat and air flow to evaporate. The Air Head and Natures head units seperate the urine and feces before they mix. The urine is just dumped and the feces is composted. It does require a small (computer fan) sized fan running all the time to keep air flow through the unit. From the couple using it that I know, they empty the urine tank every other day or so for full time two people and the feces is emptied ever other month or so. I will have to see if I can post my friends write up of their unit here. 🙂

I replaced the joker valve on the head a couple days ago to fix the issue on Valkyrs head and was successful but 🙁 it really sucked doing it. I must have pumped 20 gallons of fresh water through the head before disasembly and still had to sanitize the whole head floor area. The vented loop must hold about a gallon of liquid. Other than that it was easy to do.. 15 minutes pumping fresh water though the system. 5 minutes changing out the joker valve. Thirty minutes cleaning it all up. Finding the joker valve was a pain. It's just a standard jabsco cheap head that west marine sells. I had to drive a 100 miles to get the joker valve from a distant west marine. Most of the stores don't carry just the joker valve ($13) instead they carry the rebuild kit for $60+ that has a joker valve in it. between the time and gas im not sure that i saved much by tracking down the just the joker valve. I should have ordered it online the week before and had it in hand already.

So I was thinking of putting off the natures head purchase till next spring or summer when we move the boat off the dock and are living on the hook. I wan't to run the exhaust to the transom and up a pipe to over head heigh.. Part of the as yet undesigned radar/traveller arch I have been thinking of. However there already is a hole in the ceiling of the head with the dorade box over it. It would be very simple to run the vent hose up to it. My only concern is that if any odors come out of the vent they will be right there on deck and probabley flowing back over the cockpit.

Carl,
How intrusive is the odor with the vent there over the head?

I found these posts on the old forums and thought I would move them over here. They are pertinate.

I I read Carl Wood's "how-to" article with much interest because we install that same Sunmar, USCG approved, composting toilet in our DE32's head, for many of the same reasons. http://www.downeastyachts.org/.....index.html

I found that I had to disassemble the two main parts to get into the head compartment, and did not have to make any alterations to the door opening or head compartment. It would have installed much better if I had removed the pre-molded platform that the conventional flush toilet was mounted on, but I opted not to make that alteration for possible resale purposes. Instead, I had to attach wooden leg extensions on the base of the foot stool to level it.

I also up-graded small "thumb turn" knobs that secure the removable composting drawer, which allows the a better seal and quicker removal and return. I think this was an important upgrade.

The effluent can build-up in the "drying chamber." A couple modifications that I made were to install a drain line, with an in-line shut off valve. The drain line connects to a collapsible 5 gallon overflow tank that is stored in the same below sole area as the compression post step and knot meter transducer. (I keep a second tank on hand in case of need, but have not needed it.) The shut off valve allows the effluent to the overflow to be regulated, manually. Otherwise, without the shut off valve, effluent could slush needlessly from the drying chamber to the overflow tank. Also, when at anchor, I open the shut off valve to allow the content of the overflow tank to evaporate as well.

During the normal summer months, there is sufficient natural heat for the composting and evaporation process to work effectively. In our experience (both on the boat and at home), the Sunmar self contained composting toilet units are sufficient for two users. I don't think they would accommodate, on a regular basis, more than two users. Also, I don't recommend a topping mixture that has too fine a material, such a peat moss. It has a tendency to bypass or clog the effluent screen and enter into the effluent is chamber, which can create numerous problems. Just the right balance has to be struck in having the chamber material compost.

We also use a solar/battery mushroom vent installed topside. We did not have to switch the vent pipe opening from the factory position on the unit; maybe because leaving the pre-molded platform required a more inboard location. However, we did have to trim the hand rail topside to accommodate the mushroom vent.

Overall it is a good alternative to the holding tank. A bit cramped with regard to space, but you gain space where the 15 gallon holding tank was and there are less mechanical and maintenance issues to contend with, and eliminating the odor associated with the conventional flush systems. Environmentally and economically a more sound option than flush toilets, and, if you find you can live without the head sink, two thru hulls could be eliminated.

Duane Nealon

Hi Duane,

You covered a couple of points that I had forgotten about, thank you. Also, I went the first summer with no holding tank and the next winter installed a tank under the cabin sole beneath the table. So far it has worked really well, I made it about 12 gallons anticipating lots of room being needed. So far over 2 summers we have only put about 1/3 of the capacity into it and when we go to pump out we actually have to put some water in the tank before emptying it. We are using the peat mixture that sunmar sells as there is a store here that carries it. We find a bag lasts all summer and a bit into the next summer (four month season here). I think if we were using it full time then we would be using about a bag every 6 to 7 weeks or so.

Overall we are really pleased with our composting toilet.

Carl Wood
S/V Libertad

Carl:

With the 5 gallon collapsible effluent overflow the tank becomes portable; which means it can be taken ashore and flushed in a toilet or otherwise safely disposed.

It is important that none of the wood chips/saw dust be hard wood, especially exotic woods that have natural inhibitors–these will prevent the composting process from occuring. Also, if certain medications are ingested and enter the composting chamber, they too may inhibit the composting process. Certainly no food scraps or other waste should be placed into the composting head. A delicate balancing and guarded system needs to be maintained in order for the composting process to be effective. For more information on the subject:
http://www.weblife.org/humanur.....fault.html

Duane Nealon

We installed the "Natures Head" composting toilet this past weekend. It fits perfectly side to side (read "it is a tight fit") to get it in the head compartment  you take the top section off the bottom section. This is just a matter of unclipping two clips, one on either side of the unit and then sliding the top section left 3 inches or so as you lift it up to disengage the rear hinge. At that point both pieces will easily fit through either of the head doors.

Here is a few picture of the two stainless angle pieces that hold the unit to the floor. The first shows how we marked where to set the mounts. We put the head in place and them made sure that we had room on either side for the crank to turn on the right without hitting the wall and the latch on the left side of the unit to open as well as being able to slide the top to the left when pulling it off the hinge when removing it. Once it was spaced right we took a pencil and just drew a line around the backside of the angle pieces to mark where they went.

After drilling the holes with a 3/16 inch drill bit we placed the mounts over the holes to double check everything.

And then used 14x1 1/2" stainless steal oval head screws to attached the brackets to the floor. I think though that I should have used flat head screws that would countersink a little bit farther. I will probably go back and change them out next week.

Once the brackets were mounted we set the head back down in place and attached the two thumb screws that hold it in place. It was a perfect fit! hip hip hurray!!!

Oh I forgot, we had to cut the nipple off of the fitting on the left hand side of the head to get the head far enough to the left so that the crank handle would turn without hitting the wall. the head comes with a left and right fittings that the vent hose can attach to. Since we are using the hose on the right side of the head we didn't need the one on the left so we cut the nipple that the hose attaches to off the fitting. the square body of the fitting holds a filter in it though to allow air through but keep flies and such out so we needed to leave it in place.

You can see the hose attached to the fitting on the right hand side of the head. I brought the hose down and then back up to create a drip loop so that condensation in the vent hose will not drain back into the head itself. I have heard reports that this can cause problems in the composting process from other owners. So i thought that this would be a simple solution. My understanding is that it is only a problem in cold weather. The fitting on the left side of the head is identical to the one shown here. I cut the nipple off flush with the square box that holds the filter on that side. This side holds a filter and a computer fan. Oh the condensation running back to here will also eventually corrode and kill the computer fan if you are using that for your active ventilation.

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The hose that came with the head was to short to go all the way to the
ceiling to attach to the dorade box so I used some  PVC pipe to fit it
all together. However I don't really like the PVC solution and plan to
order a 8 ft length of the hose that will go the whole distance and just
replace what is there now.

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To attach the hose to the ceiling they ship a little plastic fitting that has a nipple on it that the hose or in my case the PVC pipe will fit over. I drilled holes in it matching the screw mount holes in the bronze trim fitting on the underside of the deck that goes up to the dorade box. Then just got longer screws and screwed it all back up to the deck. Though you can't see the whole thing I took some brasso and cleaned up the bronze fitting. You can see the edge of it showing gleaming. 🙂 brasso and a scotchbright pad does wonders in cleaning up all the bronze fittings and trim on the boat.

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You have probably noticed in the pictures that the headliner has been removed in the head and that we have the counter top taped off and it is painted white. We are going to sand the overhead down to get the roughest stuff knocked flat and then will be painting it a gloss white. At a later date if condensation becomes an issue we will put a headliner back in but we figure that with the shower in there it is going to have lots of moisture going on and that it will be easier to clean and keep up with. The old headliner had a lot of mildew/mold on it when we pulled it down. You can see in the above picture the discoloration from mildew/mold even after scrubbing with oxyclean and vinegar water solution. I am going to wipe it down one more time with clorox solution to see if that will go away before we paint it.

I will be adding some pictures to my original post on about the countertops for the rest of it.

After we have the head totally finished we will post some more pictures and after we have had a chance to use the head I will keep this updated on how well it works in actual usage.

So we have used the new composting head for the weekend. Not long enough for real evaluation, but there are a few things that I can comment on. So far, I am liking the unit.

It only took one time to figure out where to sit on it to get fecal matter to drop through the trap door into the composting bin. Once you figure this out, there is realatively little clean up needed after using the unit. Toilet paper just goes in the composting bin with the stool.

Urinating you use the two holes in the front of the bowl. It seems to be a hair easier for guys to use than girls but overall everyone has been able to use it with no problems. With three of us using it, it took 3 days to fill the urine bottle this weekend. Yesterday with 2 more guests we filled it in one day.

One thing though, that you need to do, is to restrain yourself from just sitting down and expelling urine or fecal matter in a forceful manner. The more spray or splashage you get the more you're going to have to clean the unit after each use. Unlike a standard toilet that uses lots of water to flush the whole bowl; this doesn't do that. If you make a mess in the upper unit, you are going to be spraying it down lightly and wiping it clean every time you use it. So far, I have found that other than the first time I used it, I haven't had to clean any fecal matter from the upper bowl at all. For the urine, on the other hand, we have been taking a dribble of water and flushing the front part of the bowl where the urine diverting section is, so that there is no odor of urine. You need to be careful not to get water on the trap door for the composting bin; introducing excess moisture into the composting part of the unit. So far, usage has been very livable for me. It is definately different than a standard head, but I am liking it so far. I was a bit worried about odor on deck, but I haven't detected any so far.

The only thing about the installation that I wish was different is that the platform the unit is mounted to was lower. Your kind of perched up on the head with your feet dangling if your a shorter person, however, even so it has been very usable for those that have tried it.

As we use it in the longer term I will report more on it.

Well it's now 14 months or so since we installed the Natures Head on Valkyr. I have had several people ask me for an update on our experiences with it,so here it goes. Overall we are extremely happy with the change from a standard marine head and holding tank to a composting head. Both me and my wife would do it over in the blink of an eye.

Positives for us include

• Overall total lack of odor.
• Ease of changing the composting mix.
• Regaining the use of two compartments under the v-berth and space in the port side v-berth hanging closet.
• Ease of Maintenance and totally removing or putting the unit back in place.
• Ease of initial installation compared to a standard marine head
• 90% less maintenance than a standard head and what maintenance you do end up doing is much less nasty.

Downsides so far

• Height of unit installed in a DE
• Frequency that the Urine container has to be changed and dumped.
• Dreaded gnat infestation.
• Units don't handle diarrhea well
• You spend more time making sure the bowl is clean each time you use the unit. (very small downside,wasn't shure I should include it as a downside but you do work at it harder than with a standard marine head.)

We have found that in actual use that the head and head compartment actually smells as fresh or fresher than the rest of the boat,this over a year of part time to full time use.  It is so nice to not worry about obnoxious odors coming from the head compartment or making the whole boat reak. It even passes the wife test with flying colors.

In practice for part time use to full time use while living at the dock we have changed the compost at intervals between six weeks and 6 months.  I think that living on the hook full time we would probably change it between once a month and every six weeks. Changing the compost is a simple matter of removing two hand knob screws that attach the unit to the floor,then removing the top of the unit (a matter of unlatching two latches and the exhaust hose). You then  can take a standard kitchen trash bag and stretch the top of the bag over the top of the base of the composting head. There is a molded in groove that it will lock into when stretched over the top. Then you simply pick the unit up and turn upside down and shake the contents into the trash bag. Typically we have found that the contents will take up about 1/4 or less of the volume of a standard kitchen bag. We,then depending on the situation,will dispose of the the trash bag in the dumpster or more often take it home with us and dump under some of the shrubs or trees at the house. Re-assembling the unit is a simple matter of attaching the base back to the brackets holding it to the floor then placing the top back on it before latching the two latches. The whole process only takes 5 or 6 minutes at the most. Just prior to putting the top back on or even after the top has been re-attached we will add the new composting mix. In normal practice we do not clean the bottom compartment. This leaves enough of the existing compost mix with it's developed compost to quickly get the new composting material going. It has been recommended to us that using a scoop to remove 70 or 80 % of the compost rather than removing the head and dumping it entirely is easier and leaves more mature compost to get the new material going. We have not tried this method yet though.

Normally you charge the unit with 1.5 to 2 gallons of new composting mix. We use ground and compressed Coir bricks (coconut husk). To use them we will take one brick (about 2.5 inches by 6 inches by 10 inches log) and add a gallon of water in a 5 gallon bucket. A couple hours later you can just break it all up in to a moist earth like mixture. If it is still a little dry you can add a little more water. You don't want it to get to wet though. One brick will create about 2 gallons of compost mix.

We regained, I would estimate, 30 or 40 cubic feet of usable storage space after removing the old plumbing and holding tank. In our boat the hoses and holding tank were very old and were permeated with odor. In the port side hanging closet, even though the hoses only took up one side of it, we didn't use the closet because anything placed into would absorb the odor of the hoses. So we did not use that space except for tool boxes or some hard parts etc..  We have now regained full use of it. The small compartment under the seating area of the v-berth used to hold plumbing and a whale type pump that had a leak in it. After removal of the plumbing and pump we gained that entire area for storage. Like wise the large compartment under the v-berth that used to hold the holding tank.

When talking about changing the composting mix I spoke of how easy it is to take the unit apart and dump it and how quickly. To give a better example,we recently received a upgraded stir bar made of thicker stainless with a smaller three handle crank that fits in our boat better than the stock handle on the older stir bar. We had not emptied the composting compartment in the six months prior to this. Removing the head, dumping it, cleaning it out totally so what we felt  comfortable handling the old stir bar to remove it and put the new on in its place and then re-assembling the unit in the boat and placing new compost material in it took about 20 minutes total. Not once did it smell nasty or make my over developed gag reflex kick in.  The roto-molded plastic that the head is made of is just this side of Teflon slick, and when dumping it, very little was stuck to it after a years use. It dumped out almost clean. The stainless stir bar did have solid matter stuck on on it in several places. It cleaned off easily with a hose.

Even the initial installation went very quick and easy compared to a standard head and plumbing. Installation consisted of mounting to L brackets to the base the head sits on that hold it down. Installing the ventilation hose which consisted of mounting 3 or 4 brackets up the side of the head bulkhead and on the overhead to run it to the opening to the overhead dorade box and then mounting a solar nicro vent in place of the cowl on the dorade. In all the entire project probably only took 3 or 4 hours of actually working time. Most of the time was spent on measuring for mounting the head itself to the platform, running the hose and mounting the nicro solar vent.

So far in the last 14 months the only maintenance we have done is replacing the stir bar and that was an optional upgrade. The unit worked fine with the old stir bar, the new one is just a bit heavier construction and with an easier handle for the space on our boat to turn it. Over all the maintenance needed for these units is minimal to none. We don't use the built in fan on the the head which I would estimate would need replacement every  two or three years. Though as I will explain later we might start using it in conjunction with the solar vent that powers the ventilation now.

We have found the installed height of this head to be slightly inconvenient. A standard marine head is very short and most boats have a built in platform that bring them up to a usable height for the average person. The Natures head on the other hand is of a standard height already and does not need a platform to make it the right height. On our boat the platform is built in such a place that you can't remove it and have a level place to install the head. The Natures Head fits perfectly on the existing platform other than it is about 7 or 8 inches higher than we would like. Due to the constraints of having a composting bin built in the base we don't see the likely hood of anyone building a shallower unit. This leaves us with tall people being just higher than is normal and for a shorter person their legs dangle when using the head. We plan on installing a little foot platform in front of the unit to overcome this issue. Regardless in the last year no one has not been able to use the head and even if we couldn't retrofit a little foot platform to make it more comfortable we would still regard this as a minimal issue compared to our problems with standard marine head systems. As the manufacture will tell you these heads are mostly marketed to the home/cabin/rv markets that normally have a bathroom with no platform to raise the head up. For that they work very well. If you have room in your head compartment to install one flat on the floor then you are golden. Even with having to install it higher up we feel it is worth it.

For me, having to empty the urine container every two to three days is my biggest complaint. With three adults full time on the boat it needs to be emptied every couple days. For two adults we find that we need to empty it every third to fourth day. For a single individual I would anticipate that you would need to empty it about once a week. We already knew about this issue before buying the unit and on the recommendation of others that own one as well as it being recommended by the manufacture we purchased extra urine containers. I would recommend this to anyone that is thinking of getting one of these heads. It allows you to change it out in the middle of the night and defer actually dealing with dumping the full bottle till the next day or even the day after that. Changing out the bottle is a matter of about thirty seconds of time. You remove the cap of the empty bottle ahead of time, unlatch the two latches that hold the top of the composting head to the base and pivot the front of the unit up about thirty degrees on the back hinge. Screw the cap on the full container as soon as you can and then using the carry handle lift that bottle out and then place the empty bottle in its place. Lower the top and re-latch. You are done. We have three bottles and that allows us nine days before we have to dump if needed. Mostly we carry the full ones back to the house and dump them there. However you can also dump in a toilet or, outside the 3 mile limit in the US, you can dump overboard. Dumping the urine containers is probably the nastiest thing about the entire process, however we don't find it so bad that we would go back to a standard marine head. If you dump the containers as soon as they are full the odor isn't that bad. If you let them sit for a few days they can smell pretty bad. We have been told of various things that you can add to the container that reduces this odor but haven't actually tried any of them yet. When installed on the head we don't find that there is any detectable odor from the containers.

Since these heads don't flush with water you have to clean the bowl every time you use the head if you get the bowl dirty.  This is actually much less of a problem and easier to do than you would imagine. After using the head two or three times you will find that you get good at getting solid wastes to fall through the trap door on the head without getting any in the bowl. Urine that goes in the two forward drain holes in the bowl is easily rinsed out after every use with a little dribble of water from the shower hose in the head or using a spray bottle of water. If you do get fecal matter in the bowl just take a handful of toilet paper and wipe down and into the composting bin. Toilet paper always goes in the composting bin where it will compost also. Then we keep some clorox wipes in the head to give the bowl a sanitising wipe down if needed. The roto-molded plastic the head is made of cleans very easily this way.

The are two issues that are probably the biggest downside we have hit in the last year. The first is diarrhea, inputting that much water/moisture into the composting process overwhelms it. I had an unfortunate run in with a stomach bug a month ago.  The head started to have an odor when you opened it. Throwing a handful of fresh compost and giving it about three days of time for the ventilation system on it to work got it through that, but an extended bout would soon overwhelm the head. I was actually impressed with how quick the system bounced back and think that if we wired in the fan that is built into the head  and ran it in conjunction with the nicro solar vent that it would accelerate ventilation and carry off the excess moisture faster. I would want to install a switch in the head compartment to turn it on or off as we would still depend on the solar vent for primary ventilation and the built in fan just when needed.

The second issue is that we seem to have picked up a gnat issue in the head. This is also something that is a known problem with these systems. It is annoying when it happens. We purchased a Hotshot product from Lowes that you hang up and it emits vapors that kill flying insects such as flys and gnats. It is not recommended for use around people so we did not hang it in the head compartment. instead we placed it in the composting bin itself. It seems to be working at suppressing the gnats. There are still a few but not nearly as bad. The next time I will pull the permeated pad that is in the plastic unit and cut it into small squares and throw them in the head. The whole unit is really too big to fit and can get in the way of the stir bars. With the poison in the head  and positive ventilation pulling any fumes to outside the boat we are not worried about issues of it us being affected by it. From what we have heard the only true solution is to remove the whole head, then empty, clean and sanitise it to get all the eggs.

So the good the bad and the ugly. If you stop us on the dock and get into a conversation about heads be prepared for us to rave out our composting head. We think that is has over all improved our quality of life on the boat by a factor of 2 or 3. It is one of those products that we think its time has come.

I can't really think of anything else. That's about as comprehensive a report as I could come up with. If you have any questions about anything I wasn't clear on let me know:)

I have been thinking about this topic a lot lately "urine tank topic that is" and I am wondering about just modifying one of the stock urine containers with a very small diameter tube inserted into it from the top and extending to the bottom and then getting a very small little 12volt pump. Maybe something from a fish tank or a little indoor waterfall pump and having that to pump out the urine container either into a larger tank or just overboard if your out sailing past the 3 mile limit. It wouldn't need to be a very powerful or fast pump.. The container only holds 2.5 gallons.

Scott

Your still dealing with where to store the urine with those. Not to mention the wife would have issues using one 🙂

Your not going to be able to put a wooden seat on the natures head. It's has a lid that lowers down over a moulded seat that is integral to the top section of the head. I find that it is fairly comfortable other than the small front to back size. However I have that problem at 6'2" with anything other than elongated standard house toilets. This is just a hair bigger sitting size than a standard marine head so I like it better than the head I replaced. The airhead composting toilet looks like it has a separate lid and seat from the base unit. You could probably replace the seat on it. Rumour has it that the seats on it are smaller than on the natures head. I would probably want to see one in person before getting one. We got the natures head based on seeing one a friend had on his boat and his comparison of the two units.  I'm sure though that both units have evolved since then. I know that the natures head has had several manufacturing upgrades since the one I purchased. They have sent us a couple of the enhancements to retrofit to our unit. Different handle and thicker beater bar for inside etc..

Cool Ideas.

I agree that those would be cool ideas. I'm not sure how suited this would be to them though unless you custom designed a unit into the boat that put the composting bin below deck or partially below deck. Part of the issue with these in the height is that you need a minimum of size on the storage bin to make them have a useful period of time between emptying them out. The other thing is designing a slightly narrower unit so your legs can easily fit on either side of it. I have thought that it might be possible to modify the raised platform that is in our boats to have the compost holding tank inside that space. Way more work than I want to do to fix something that already works though 🙂

scott

I would love to be able to design and build the boat the way I would like it. 🙂 but real life says not.. So I work around the edges in what I can afford.

Scott