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I am thinking about picking up a couple 12 inch bronze deck cleats and mounting them on the caprail on valkyr to aid in short handed docking. I have a friend that had a 44 foot Jeaneu that did this all the time by himself. He had a cleat just aft of midships and would have a line attached to that with a big loop in one end. He could drop the loop over a dock cleat as he came in and it would pull the boat up against the dock and if you left it in idle forward it would hold the boat in place against the dock while you rigged the rest of the dock lines.
Has anyone else done this on their boat?
Also dose anyone know what size the stock cleats on the aft deck are, I have found some hershoff style bronze cleats I can get in 10 and 12 inch sizes.
Scott
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Funny you should mention one of the only complaints I have with my boat. A midship line, which I believe is called a breast line, happens to be the most practical line to make fast first when docking as it allows the boat to stay parallel to the dock. It tends to keep drama down to a minimum, especially when single handing. For that matter it's the best line to hand the guest on board who is diying to help by using superhuman strenght to pull the boat to the dock. Let them pull away as it won't put the boat out of posititon as would the "normal" bow and stern line would. Every boat should have a midship cleat as it also really helps position the boat in a slip when line are run fore and or aft depending on which way places it in the "spot".
Since I have yet to add a cleat, I been using large padeye that is used as a vang attachment point when off the wind. As I get into port, I rig a dock line with a double figure eight knot thru the padeye and that becomes my "dock brake" until I decide how to mount a cleat. Each boat has a cosmic spot that can be found much easier if you happen to have a sail track running down the side of the rail. Alas... not for us with stock DEs. Front and rear balance is what you're looking for, so that whether the boat surges either way it stays parallel to the dock. Once the fore and aft lines have been made fast, the breast line is then run forward or aft to fine tune.
The size of the cleat should match the size line you plan on using. I'm wondering if the rail position can be made strong enough, with backing plates, to hold the cleat. I would love to find "affordable" hawse pipes, like the ones we have fore and aft, and mount the cleat on the side of the bulwark. I have yet to decide, but as I singlehand almost always, I have to come up with something as I can't stay out here forever, can I?
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I have looked at the hawse pipe option but I don't think any of the ones I have seen have the depth needed to go thorough the space between the outer and inner walls of the bulwark. They also seem to be rather expensive. The other downside is still having a cleat to tie your line off to. I would not want something extending out sideways into the walking space that I could bump into. I really really wanted to do one that matched the for and aft ones but just can't justify the money or the space on deck etc that it would impinge on in a already space restricted area of deck. On top of the cap rail seems to at least address the space issue.
The other thought I have had was to get a heavy pad eye and a large block I could run a dock line through and bring the end back to one of the winches. You could actually adjust the line from the helm as you pulled in. Stand beside the helm and drop the line over dock cleat as you ease up and then step back to the helm to finish easing up to the dock. The block could also be used with a cleat instead of a padeye.
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Valid points. I just went out and tried a snacht block on that padeye and it sort of works but the line is not really fair back to the winch, which a smaller block might work better, and have clearance problems with the gate stantions, but it would allow for more control at the helm for the final burst to park it. I do believe, as you, that a cleat on the rail will be the solution.
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I'm confused. Do you guys not have haws-holes amidships? Argyle does.
I run fore and aft spring lines (or breast lines) through that hole and aft. One of the lines I throw around the primary winch and the other I make off to the cleat just aft of the winch.
For docking we've developed a system that works pretty well for us. We moor to a floating dock which has standard dock cleats fore, aft and in the middle. I made up a "docking harness" out of some old dock line. It's just a length of 3/4" or so line that we run from the aft haws-hole, outside of everything, back to the midships haws-hole and made off at both ends, but with plenty of slack. My wife or whomever, stands aft, on the side of the dock and as I approach all she has to do is place the line over the cleat and we have a temporary stern line and aft spring line already made. Put the helm toward the dock and the gear in forward idle and the boat will hug the dock while we calmly attach the rest of the dock lines. I also put in a series of figure-8 knots in the aft end of the docking harness, to catch the cleat and give us a little more stability when a breeze is pushing us off the dock.
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Your the first DE that I have seen with midship hawse pipes. Wish I had them on Valkyr.
I just ordered bronze cleats for midships on the caprail. I measured the aft cleats and they are 10 inch bronze hershoff style 4 bolt cleats. I found some identical style cleats at hamiltonmarine.com for an out the door price of about 38 dollars each and then found a 10 dollar off coupon that brought the price down to 33 dollars each. I will have to figure out the best balance point for docking for where to mount them on the cap rail though. I will have to take a line and run it from the dock to each of the stantions and other attachment points to see how the boat hugs the dock when in idle forward.
scott
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Wow, yeah, I was looking through some pictures of others and you're right, quite a few don't have them. You definitely need the ability to secure a line amid ships when maneuvering the boat, especially considering we don't back too well. The ability to spring your way into and out of situations is a valuable skill on a full-keeled boat.
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There is so much of the time that we sail short handed that I am doing everything I can to tweak the boat to be easier to handle by myself if I need to. Mid ship spring lines is just one of those things. If I can drop a loop over a cleat on the dock from midships as I pull in then the boat will pull itself into the dock and hold it self there under power (idle forward). Then I can easily rig the rest of the dock lines myself.
Do you use your midship lines like this when docking?
Also does anyone know where you could get hawse pipes for our boats?
Scott
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I used to have a midship hawsepipe/cleat on Bodhran, but suspected it of leaking and took it out. I got them from sailboatstuff.com
http://www.sailboatstuff.com/i.....0412LG.jpg
I wish that I still had them in, but alas one got dropped overboard after I had pulled it out and I just glassed over the hull and deck where the hawsepipes were installed. I don't know if they're big enough for a DE38, but they fit the 32 with just a little bit of grinding.
Another thing about coming in with a spring line (not a breast line, they run straight across to a cleat to hold the boat in), the spring needs to be lead from about a third of the way forward of the stern to a cleat at the end of the dock. If the line is run from amidships, it will pull the bow in and kick the stern out when it comes up tight. I put my jib tracks up on the rail on Bodhran and find that a spring line hitched to my jib car works well when coming into a dock.
Jason
DE32 Bodhran
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Jason I have looked at those in the past but had lost the link. Thanks for posting it.
They want a pretty penny don't they? The thing that stopped me also was that it says a maximum of a 3 inch thick bulwark on the largest one. I think the bulwark on the DE38 is closer to 6 inches deep amidships. Though I have to say that I haven't measured it on the inside.. However the caprail is about 8 inches wide I think. take away the trim strips and it seems to be in the 6 inch range. I have considered just doing it in fiberlass and bolting a standard cleat on the inside of the bulwark. Maybe line the inside of the fiberglass hawse pipe with some HDPE to make it slick. It would be a bit hard to reach it inside to glass that part I guess but it would be a cheap if labor intensive way of doing it. Also water tight.
I hope the cleats will work fine. I am going to install them amidships at the widest part of the boat and just have a block or something other aft to hold the line to let the boat pull from that aft position to keep the bow from pushing inwards when docking like you mentioned. Having the cleat midships will let me use it centrally for spring lines as well as a breast line. 🙂 my multi-purpose solution.
I had also thought about just putting a heavy pad eye in and using one of my Garhauer snatch blocks that I purchased for running our storm drogues lines through. http://garhauermarine.com/cata.....cfm?cid=26 See image below. It has a 5000 lb working load which is way beyond anything needed. It can handle 3/4 inch line I believe and though expensive it is one of the cheapest snatch blocks out there at 150 bucks.
The downside is that it wouldn't work for spring lines as you could only run one line to it at the time.
Scott
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Oh here is a link directly to the sailboatstuff page with the hawse pipes on it.
http://www.sailboatstuff.com/d....._pipe.html
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Related issue to the hawse pipes is the rigging of bowsprit relative to the bow hawsepipe for dock lines run forward to deck cleats. Oasis has some bent bowsprit rigging (not severely bent,but misaligned) from lying with dock lines either tightly over the bowsprit shrouds or tightly under the shrouds (not the bobstay –I'm referring to the short horizontal shrouds from side of the bow to bowsprit's point). Because of the position of shrouds &hawse pipes,there's no good way to run the lines without stressing the shrouds. The shrouds are meant to stabilize ¢er the bowsprit between port-starboard angle,not vertical angle,so they are not designed to be strong in this direction. So goes my guess. To avoid this,I don't tie the bow dock lines tight (so they are several inches slack –thus not normally pressuring the shrouds) and instead make the spring lines really tight —the spring lines don't interfere with the shrouds. Not an ideal solution imho. Maybe better to have a cleat on the rail.
For reference,I'm talking about these.
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk.....wsprit.gif" width="965" height="1010" />
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I just purchased some old bronze chocks to put on the caprail on the bow both port and starboard. This might work for you. It raises the line up a little higher. Though I have to say that on valkyr on floating docks I have never had an issue of the docklines touching the whisker stays of the bowsprit. I can see on a non floating dock where that might become an issue as the boat drops lower than the docklines.
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Hi Scott,
I put a cleat on each side of Libertad,they work great! Had a fun time as the access to the nuts inside was a chore LOL! But I got them on. I am in Florida till May in my land yacht[Image Can Not Be Found]. When I get home I will take some pictures and give better description as to what I did.
Carl
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Awesome. I have the cleats now. 10 inch bronze hershoff style. But they are fairly low on the project list. I just found my starboard upper shrouds lower swage fitting is cracked. 🙁 so some new uppers at the least are on the priority list.
Scott
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How do I install chocks or other hardware like that on a DE caprail? Just drill a pilot hole and squirt in some 5200 then screw them straight down into the caprail ? How to size the length of the screws,for the thickness of the rail wood,or longer to dig into the hull-deck joint?
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I'm not sure that screws would be the best way to do this. I would use bolts. Through bolted with as big a backing pad inside as you can get on them. With just screws on them you have created a very dangerous weapon if they ever pull out. Just imagine your piece of hardware on the end of a stretched piece of nylon rope and all of a sudden the screws pull out. If someone is on the dock where it lashes back you could probably put it all the way through them. Jjust tied up to the dock you can exert tremendous forces on a cleat in 30 knot winds.
As Libertad-Carl said above its a bit hard to access the underside to get the backing plate and nuts on but it is doable. I still haven’t done mine because of that but it is still on the list.
scott
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I too have looked at adding mid-ship hawse pipes to my DE38 ~ not only for spring lines but also scuppers as, when under way and heeled, water consistently washes over the high side – yes, the high side – runs aft down the deck – between the companionway and cockpit [the nautical name for that part of the deck escapes me ~ bridge deck ?] – and collects on the low side.
It usually soaks the seat of the pants of those seated on the high side who are not swift enough to heed my warning …"All stand!"
Have considered installing removable [for walking space when not at sea] dams [made of Starboard] on the deck from the cabin to the rail – between the aft 2 deck drains … as seen forward of the winches [in wood] on this DE32.
Will probably go with the cap rail cleat – thru-bolted with backing plate – and thru-hull fittings for mid-ship scupper drains.
Martin – DE38 Cutter s/v Eclipse
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I am planning on building drop boards for the walk ways on both sides of the boat like shown in the picture above. I will probably just do them at a 90 degree angle though,made out of 1/2 acrylic with maybe with a teak T cap on top to step on if needed.
We have talked a couple times about building something like above for seats in the cockpit also. As to a midships hawse pipe. I would love to put one in but the deepest bronze or stainless ones I have seen is 4 inches and I think the distance between the inner and outer bulwarks is deeper than that.
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Scott Carle said:
I just purchased some old bronze chocks to put on the caprail on the bow both port and starboard.
So you're saying that even these,if mounted on the cap rail near the bow,should be thru-bolted with a backing plate? Just looking for clarification.. Also from some reading up on this it seems Dolfinite Bedding Compound is a better method than 5200. (?)
What would be very neat is if some enterprising DE owner could use some of the new CAD tools (like the google 3D sketch tool) to draw up custom parts like hausepipes for our fabrication.
Also what would be more fitting IMHO is wooden chocks like this:
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Scott Carle said:
As to a midships hawse pipe. I would love to put one in but the deepest bronze or stainless ones I have seen is 4 inches and I think the distance between the inner and outer bulwarks is deeper than that.
Get a circular one and join the middle with pipe?
http://www.toplicht.de/en/shop.....und-bronze
http://www.toplicht.de/jpeg/1210074.JPG
1. "Do you have a hawse pipe mid-ship? If so,you can use a wooden rod with a line hitched around it instead of a cleat. This way,when you're not docked,you don't have a stubber."
2. "Works great. Instead of dowels we use 24" (more or less) scraps of 1" stainless tubing. Put the tubing into a length of fire hose and sew the ends shut. … If we want the bitter end on the dock,I just use a line with an eye doubled over with a rod through it. Never had it fail. We use them with mooring lines in calm weather to keep the foredeck clear. Lines go to the sampson post if it looks like a blow coming. I just toss them next to the bulwark in the little valley beside the teak deck and they stay put,even at sea. "
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Jonathan Oasis said:
So you're saying that even these,if mounted on the cap rail near the bow,should be thru-bolted with a backing plate? Just looking for clarification..
The side loads if at anchor in heavy winds could get high quick. I would much rather be through bolted than screwed down. For everyday use screwed down is probably adequate but in any challenging conditions I think it is asking for trouble. You have a lot of load stress issues with any sideways loads due to going through the cap rail itself and then the fibreglass joint. It isn't as structural as just one surface as it can allow the caprail to move/slide a little against the fiberglass joint. The screws can act as levers to cause this action. If you through bolt it limits this action and actually compresses the cap rail to the fiberglass to give you a bit more structural strength.
As to the wooden fairleads.
I wouldn't use them on a bigger boat given the availability of modern metals. If you actually have them under a load much the anchor line/ dock line will cut through them on a regular basis. Under normal conditions I would expect to replace them annually. I was tied to the dock in my 23.5 ft,3000lb,sailboat one night where we had 70mph winds and 3 ft seas hitting the boat. My 5/8 inch 3 strand nylon rope cut a channel in the edge of the dock where the boat was sawing it back and forth almost 6 inches deep. I was very glad I had oversize docklines. If I had that line run through wooden fairleads it would have eaten through them in one evening and started to cut the fiberglass or hit the metal caprail and cut the dockline. Maybe if you built them and lined the inside with HDPE so that it was very slick so that the line would slide easily it would be a bit safer. If you could limit motion so that friction wasn't a problem I don't think it would be an issue.
There are some great old ways of doing stuff from wooden boats. I use some on Valkyr but a lot I don't. They all work but some require annual maintenance or on an even shorter interval due to painting, varnishing, or wear. The bronze chocks I have were made 60 or better years ago and are still usable. Pretty much install correctly and they just work, no further maintenance required unless you get a leak around the bolts or something like that. So I guess the wooden chocks would work but you will need to monitor them and replace when they start to wear. Use IPE/Iron Wood to make them and they should last much much longer. I bought the bronze ones I have for 20 bucks or there abouts on ebay. Not sure I would want to go to the effort to make my own out of wood for that cost. Though thinking about it the wood ones would look cool.
Another major issue with the ones pictured is that they will not keep the line from jumping out. The bronze ones have overlapping ears that will keep that from happening. I consider that to be really important. I think you could easily build them out of wood with the overlapping ears though.
Sometimes I think it would be really cool to start a business building traditional wooden bits such as this. The prices these things bring nowadays are pretty impressive. These and fairleads and rigging eyes, blocks with wooden cheek plates like the stock blocks on our boats used to have.
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